I have MS and I was stationed in Germany in 1976-1977. As I am reading about MS and vets, it seems that Agent Orange was the factor if a vet was stationed in VietNam. Those appear to be the vets that are successful in receiving compensation.

I don't think I came in contact with Agent Orange because I was in Germany.

I received the immunizations of who knows what. I was also gassed a few times in training
Do I even bother to apply?

How would I answer the question of "how is my disability related to my service in the military"?

Are there any other factors that I am unaware of?

I've just begun looking into all of this.

Thanks-

MS is not a AO presumptive disease. You would need a doctor to say that exposure to whatever shots or gasses caused the MS. You need to build a solid case using medical experts. The VA won't give you this without a fight unless you got the MS within one year of service. When were you diagnosed with MS?

With MS there is a 7 year window after discharge for symptoms, since you can have MS symptoms for years before a diagnosis.

What is AO presumptive?

I did not know about the 7 year window for MS after discharge. Presumptive AO exposure is for vets who were either boot on the ground in Vietnam or in certain other places where AO was used. If a vet can show that he was somehow exposed to AO then there is a long list of diseases he can be service connected for, but not MS that I know of at this time. Even non-presumptive AO exposure cases will sometimes fly if you have medical evidence that AO caused the disease. It is very hard to prove that as a rule. Just about every year or two now a new disease is added to the AO presumptive list. Is there medical evidence that AO causes MS? That is a new one on me. There is evidence and then there is evidence the VA will accept which is different.

MS doesn't have to be tied to anything but "symptoms" you have in your service medical records. It doesn't need to be tied to AO, occupation or vaccines, nor do you need a diagnoses in service.

If your medical records show visual fluctuation, or blurred vision that comes and goes, specific hearing loss etc. Than a Dr can find these symptoms and be able to determine if its SC or not.

Were you diagnosed with MS within the 7 yrs following separation? Do you have records showing treatment for or symptoms of during service or the 7 yrs following?

If you do, than a medical opinion from a specialist stating the MS is service connected on a more probable than not bases may do it.

A statement from a Dr, absent any service records to back it up will not result in an award.

Again, you don't need an in service diagnoses, but you do need documented symptoms in your records.


Allan

All records have been destroyed because it was so long ago. I was hospitalized in 1983 with symptoms (half my body went numb) but the hospital does not keep records that long, nor does the doctor's office that I had seen in those early times.

I still know the doc and he would probably write a letter because he had suspected MS, but MRIs had not been invented yet and that is they way they diagnose MS now. So there are NO records from that 7 year window in existence.

Lost cause, I'm guessing?

So you have no Saparation Examination or military service records of anykind?
No Hearing exams, eye or dental? Or is it that no symptoms showed during this time?

Records during active duty and the following seven yrs is what you need.
Most hospitals only keep their records 5 yrs then their destroyed.
There are still roughly 20% of us that don't show on MRI's or spinal taps.
The VAMC Dr's left me with a diagnoses of "Neuromuscular Disorder of Unknown Cause" for more than a decade.
Dr Craig Bash was able to serch through all my past med records and service records and make a firm diagnoses of MS I am very greatful he was able to determine what it was.
The average age of onset is 19. Thats when my symptoms started showing in the service records.

If the DVA would release the other 3 yrs of med records, that would have helped. But it's odd how our records end up missing like that, isn't it?

A fully favorable C&P exam, an exam and favorable med opinion by a private Dr I've seen for many yrs following service and three or four IMO's from Dr Bash along with records to back it up, has gotten me no where since the raters don't provide any weight to such evidence.

The only weight they apply to evidence is to their "contracted" IMO's.

I've been on appeal for over a decade, so I wish you luck.

Allan

Thank you, Allan.

I had no symptoms until I was out of the army. I had has slight symptoms of numbness in hands & legs which I blew off at them time. Hell, I was in my early 20s. They would always go away. My first major symptom was about 6 years after when 1/2 of my body went numb and the doctor put me in the hospital. They ran tests and treated me with steroids. Those symptoms slowly went away. At that time there were no MRIs. The doctor suspected MS. There are no records of that because it was too long ago. I could get a letter from that doctor because I still know him.

So any records from the army wouldn't show any symptoms.

The "firm" diagnosis came a few years later when I had my first MRI (after the 7 years). But its been too long for those records to be around.

Does being treated by VA do me any good?

I am being treated at the VA now and for the last 11 years or so, because of the prescription program which is much better than thru my health insurance. Prior to that I made "too" much money to qualify for care at va, but then they changed their rules. I am fortunate that I am still able to work full-time.

So it's not looking good for my case, huh? Thanks again for your time.

57tom,
you bet. Get that letter from the doctor while you still can. That is what you need to prove your MS started within the 7 yr period.

[Does being treated by VA do me any good?]

IF you can get those Doctors evaluations and work ups for MS the VAMC did, Yes they will help. Their notations on symptoms, medications etc is what you need if MRI's are not available. They only keep MRI's 5 yrs at the VAMC's.

MS is often diagnosed on treatment records. Visual problems were the first for me. I would loose some vision, than get it back again. Blurred vision, Ocular inflammation. Legs would go numb.

Get every health record you can from the VAMC along with your diagnoses of MS and decide witch is your strongest evidence to send in.


Goerge Patton gives good advice.

[I think if symptoms are shown in service or within the seven year window, the disability can be granted if a medical examiner provides a medical opinion linking the earlier symptoms and the current diagnosis and provides a strong rational for the opinion.]

"and provides a strong rational for the opinion"

I have a couple questions? Why do VA raters, never, never have to do the same thing, when they apply no weight to your IMOs? Why do contracted IMO's the DVA obtains, lack the same medical rational or make an attemp to discredit the professional ones you've sent them?

57 Tom
If you are pretty sure you suffered these conditions due to military service, then you should apply right away. You probably want to find a Veterans Service Officer to help you.
Even tho you may not be able to "prove" your case right now, apply anyway. The law says that the VA has a "Duty to Assist" you with your claim.
The reasons you should apply now:
1) Your health is unlikely to get better over the years, and, even if you dont need those health benefits now, you may well need them in 10 years.
2) The VA tells people it takes an average of 6 months to process a claim. Even tho some of the VA offices have been caught at "faking" dates to make their numbers look better, you are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to get a check after 6 months. In my case, I applied on April 4, 2002, and I finally was DENIED IU benefits on April 13, 2008, more than 6 YEARS Later. And NOW, I can appeal. Yea..they "processed" part of my claim, but "forgot" about Individual Unemployability (IU) for more than 6 years. The reality: It will take you years and years and years to finally be awarded benefits due to you. If you dont think so, just ask some of the other people on hadit..carlie, Bell, hundreds of others. These are people who have fought the VA for years to get their benefits, along with me.
I waited at least 3 years before I applied for benefits, after I thought I may be eligible, and I truly wish I had not waited. Even tho I have only been awarded "partial" VA benefits, I could sure use another 3 years of retro, right now.
Bottom LIne: WAITING TO APPLY FOR VA BENEFITS COULD COST YOU THOUSANDS

Two good friends of mine from high school (class of "67") just turned 60 years old. One was Army airborne serving on DMZ Korea 1968-70, the other was Navy Seabee with Vietnam service,same dates. Both exposed to Agent Orange. They grew up two blocks from each other, best of friends. Both diagnosed with MS about a year apart some 15 years after military service. MS is not on the presumptive list of Agent Orange illnesses. Hopefully, someday it will be given the same consideration as ALS-Lou Gehrig's Disease. Coincidence(?) You tell me. Currently, both men are patients in a nursing home nearby, I visit them almost daily. One is paraplegic and the other is a quad. VARO denied service connection on both with long-lengthy appeals years back. *My recommendation to you is to find the best neuromuscular physician's you can locate for opinions--then find a good veteran's attorney for your VA Compensation claim---get ready for a long fight with the VA (unless the laws are changed). Hopefully, you were diagnosed within or near the 7-year presumptive period. File your claim for VA Comp as soon as possible--fight the VA tooth and nail.

I did not go to Viet Nam but I am pretty sure I was exposed to Agent Orange in Germany. I even know where they kept it which was right next to where I worked. I also used cleaning solvents to clean electronic equipment.

I have had severe Diabetes II since I was about 50. I come from a very large family and I am the only one and I know that I got it in the Army just can't prove it except the Army did give me three glucose tolerance tests which is looking for some kind of sugar problem. I remember the Doc saying I had a peculiar response but not diabetes. They thought it had something to do with my panic attacks.

Pete

Great advise here- having some proof of symptoms within that 7 year after discharge period will be critical to your claim-

Dr. Bash ,the IMO doc who Allan mentioned,has MS himself.

This case shows how correct Allan is is the symptom factor-
http://www.va.gov/vetapp08/files2/0812853.txt

"FINDINGS OF FACT

1. An unappealed July 1977 rating decision denied service
connection for multiple sclerosis essentially based on
findings that there was no confirmed diagnosis of multiple
sclerosis within the postservice presumptive period for such
disease.

2. Evidence received since the July 1977 rating decision,
including a letter from a private neurologist stating that
the veteran likely had multiple sclerosis dating back to
1970, relates to previously unestablished elements necessary
to substantiate the claim seeking service connection for
multiple sclerosis, and raises a reasonable possibility of
substantiating the claim.

3. The record contains competent medical evidence indicating
that the veteran's multiple sclerosis was incurred within
seven years following his discharge from service."

Buddy statements and family statements of symptoms consistent with MS could be very helpful to you-if they can be detailed as happening within the 7 year presumptive period.

This next BVA decision (award for MS) shows what we mean:
http://www.va.gov/vetapp08/files1/0808726.txt

These claims need a strong medical opinion as well as proof (by medical or lay testimony) of symptoms consistent with MS within the 7 years.

I had Dr's explain that my MRI looked like buckshot holes throughout the brain that showed like bright white spots. I've had VA Dr's & students say that it normal & not to be concerned about it. Physical therapists, Eye Dr's & PCP's continually stated symptoms of MS & treated me for it for well over a decade.
VA neurologists said, normal brain, ischemia, gleosis & demiolynation & one said id was psychosomatic. They mostly pressed that I was normal and should get over it attitude.
After a decade or so, the VA neurologists gave a final diagnoses of TBI. All VA neurologists refused to view past & even current treatment records. I've been told since that I have both MS & TBI.

Dr bash started with all my service records & view all the years of medical treatment records I had.
Since I bought a copy of the first MRI films the VA took, he determined I had MS & it started in service. First symptoms started in boot camp at age 19(1967).

One thing I would like to add in Dr Bash's favor is that he worked for the National Institute of Medicine for about 10 or 15 yrs doing lab tests on how to diagnose MS with an MRI. He helped write the research books on it.

This was very helpful to me in order to rule out or rule in MS, as I feel the VA neurologists have VARO's best interest at heart & not the patient. They may not like the fact that I used someone with Bash's experience to submit for an IMO, but then again "any" Imo I send in or VA C&P they've sent me for, that was favorable, they've had a problem with.

My claim was denied - what do I do next?

This are the VA reasons:

"Review of your service treatment records were negative for any complaints, treatment, or diagnosis of MS during your military service."

(At 18 I didn't even know what MS was, let alone know what any of the symptoms were. If I had any slight symptoms, I would have blown them off. So this doesn't seem very unusual to me.)

"Review of the cited treatment records show that you first sought treatment at the VA in 2002, at which time you reported and 18 year history of MS."

(I never sought treatment at the VA because I always had private health insurance. Prior to 2002 I had been taking weekly injections of Avonex for quite a few years. When I first went to VA I reported an 18 year history, I had been estimating - the doctor asked, and I said 18 years. I wasn't concerned about being totally accurate, that wasn't important at the time. But 18 years would have been 1984-ish and my 7 year cut off would have been June 84. With private insurance I was paying $225 a month out of pocket just for the injections. Once VA changed some of their income requirements, I could get the injections throught them for $7, up until then my imcome was too high.)

Review of the letter from Dr. XXXXX notes that your private medical records from 1977 to 1990 are no longer available. He reported that from 1977 to 1982 you presented several times with numbness that initially was undetermined. He further reports that eventually a diagnosis of MS was suspected in 1983 or 84 a diagnosis of MS was confirmed. Furthermore, Dr. XXX notes that in his opinion, you exhibited early symptoms of relapsing remitting MS in the early 1980's.

(This was the nexxus letter that I got. It is true that ALL medical records have been destroyed from the doctor's office, neurologist, and the hospital due to the fact that is was so long ago. Nothing exists for me to go after. Only this one doctor who had treated my back then and that I still know.)

"There is no medical evidence showing the date of the confirmed diagnosis of MS. Therefore, service connection for MS is denied since this condition neither occured in nor was caused by service nor manifested to a compensable degree within any applicable presumptive period."

(I thought you just had to prove you had symptoms within 7 years after discharge not a confirmed diagnosis. I'm confused.)

What is my next step? Thanks everyone for you ideas.

57tom,
your denial is typical from the VARO level.

["Review of your service treatment records were negative for any complaints, treatment, or diagnosis of MS during your military service."]

You can expect the VARO level to play this card every time, unless you point out in a NOD or appeal that you only need to have a showing of "symptoms" during service & 7 yrs following. They know it. But if you don't call them on it they will continue to use it to deny you.

["There is no medical evidence showing the date of the confirmed diagnosis of MS. Therefore, service connection for MS is denied since this condition neither occurred in nor was caused by service nor manifested to a compensable degree within any applicable presumptive period."

(I thought you just had to prove you had symptoms within 7 years after discharge not a confirmed diagnosis. I'm confused.)]

1) you must prove symptoms during service or 7 yrs following.
2) you must prove you have a "current" diagnoses of MS.
3) you must have a nexus or link connecting the two. A C&P examination or medical opinion should do it.

Medical records are generally kept 5 yrs at facilities. Some keep them 10 yrs.
If you have "NO" medical records during service or the seven yrs following service showing MS, than you will not likely win your claim.

Don't worry about the dates you throw out that are not accurate. The VARO raters & some BVA raters will play on it, but it won't likely stand.
Everything they denied on, you must counter attack in your NOD or appeal.

A strong favorable medical opinion is what you need along with records to support it.

Have you checked for eye examination & hearing loss records along with medical treatment records?

There are many eye conditions associated with MS & Optometrists may keep their records longer.

My service records show I had vision loss, than gained it back, than lost it again. Fluctuating vision, blurred vision, double vision, occular inflamation are all symptoms of MS. Check your SMR eye records carefully. Also your hearing examinations during service.
Maybe you worked somewhere or had insurance examinations that may have some records.

If your symptoms did not show at all until the seven yr period following service & you have no records to submit to support your claim, it's not likely the VA will grant. You must have the records.