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Help - This Vet Has No Cib - Cab Award


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20 replies to this topic

#1 carlie

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:32 AM

This vet has no CIB - CAB award.
Does this info from his 201 prove (as PTSD stressor) for combat vet?

13F10 - Asst Mach Gunner 14 Aug 1968
and
16F10 - Asst Mach Gunner 14 Feb 1969

along with

Designation:

VN Counteroffensive Phase V

VN Counteroffensive Phase VI

Tet/69 Counteroffensive

Unnamed Campaign


I have scanned these forms and will try to upload them here.

Thanks for any and all responses.
carlie


Attached File  Jose_MOS.jpg   173.41KB   24 downloads

Attached File  Jose_campaigns.jpg   821.31KB   27 downloads





#2 bbknor

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:45 AM

Carlie I believe that his MOS (Combat Arms) and campains in Vietnam would prove to be PSTD Stressors. Only Special Forces and Infantry recieve the Combat Infantrymens Badge.

As for the Combat Action Badge which was authorized on 5 May 2005. He is not authorized for award as follows:

"(6) Retroactive awards for the CAB are not authorized prior to 18 September 2001, applications (to include supporting documentation) for retroactive awards of the CAB will be forwarded through the first two star general in the chain of command to CG, U.S. Army Human Resources Command, ATTN: AHRC-PDO-PA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471."

HIs time of service in Vietnam is prior to the actual creation of the CAB.

#3 Berta

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:12 AM

I have not had time to read the scans- but traditionally VA wants proof of stressor, unless PH, CIB or CAR is on the veterans DD 214-

My husband was USMC Vietnam- all USMC were considered infantry regardless of their MOS-
he had numerous decorations/awards but
he still had to prove his stressors.

Although Rod was in combat many times- his actual stressors had nothing to do with the direct combat-just the results in a few cases and many had nothing whatsoever to do with the firefights at all.
there were many reasons Vietnam vets had significant stressors.
Some considered combat as just part of the job.

Edited by Berta, 20 April 2009 - 11:14 AM.


#4 john999

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:24 AM

I don't think combat MOS and Vietnam campaigns are enough to prove combat with the enemy. I could be wrong since I had combat MOS and Vietnam campaigns but no CIB since I was in an aviation brigade. I had Pathfinder MOS but ended up in Aviation.

#5 bbknor

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:30 AM

I can't understand why the VA puts specific stressors on there criteria. Being shot at is being shot! Its at a disturbing situation that one finds one self in. As well as seeing the aftermath or being involved in a scud attack. The memories and experiences carry on for years but not the physical results. All a 201 has in it are your awards campaigns and duty assignments not the actual happenings of day to day things in a combat area. Its a broke system for sure.

#6 Berta

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:36 AM

I agree with John-so would the VA- I know it doesnt seem to make sense but the VA wants proof of stressors.

A stressful event will be either documented in the unit morning reports or the vet can get a buddy statement.

I had a vet many years ago who wanted help with his claim- he related about 15 stressors to me and about 20 to his shrink-
they were all different-
JSRRC couldnt find proof of any of them.

He was in combat zone -Vietnam.
But he had no valid stressors.

Please check out my topic here under Stressors defined.

If it happened it can be proven.Most of the time.

#7 Hoppy

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:29 PM

carlie,

I was helping a veteran who said he had PTSD. I asked him to get me his current medical records. He had been seen by three different shrinks over the last five years with no diagnosis of PTSD. Point being is to make sure the guy has a diagnosis of PTSD. The stressor identified in the veterans stressor statement needs to match up to the stressor located by the JSRCC or otherwise established. A veteran recently told me the JSRCC made him chose a single event to have the JSRCC research. They would not search for long lists of events provided by the veteran.

I posted some case decisions I found below involving veterans who did not have CIB'S, combat MOS's etc.


"Credible supporting evidence" does not mean that
the veteran must definitively establish his personal
engagement in combat. Suozzi v. Brown, 10 Vet. App. 307, 311
(1997) (requiring corroboration of every detail, including
the veteran's personal participation, VA defined
"corroboration" too narrowly). Rather, the veteran's
presence with his unit at a time when his unit is attacked
tends to show that that the veteran experienced such attack
personally, without specifically showing his personal
participation. See Id.; see also Pentecost v. Principi, 16
Vet. App. 124 (2002).


In Pentecost v. Principi, 16 Vet. App.
124 (2002), the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans
Claims (Court) stated that the veteran's unit records
constituted independent descriptions of rocket attacks that
were experienced by the veteran's unit when he was stationed
in Vietnam, which, when viewed in the light most favorable to
the veteran, objectively corroborated his claim of having
experienced rocket attacks. The Court reiterated that,
although the unit records did not specifically identify the
veteran as being present during the rocket attacks, the fact
that he was stationed with a unit that was present while such
attacks occurred suggested that he was in fact exposed to the
attacks. On remand, AMC/RO must attempt to verify any
incident described by the appellant by contacting the United
States Army and Joint Services Records Research Center
(JSRRC) (formerly the United States Armed Services Center for
Research of Unit Records (USASCRUR)).

#8 shamrock

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:40 PM

His 201 file just shows that he was an assist. machine gunner, unit of assignment was artililary. Really his record only shows that he had basic combat training which everyone even the army starts out with and that he was assigned to a artililary unit. The asst. machine gunner only comes into play like on guard duty or to defend the perimeter if a ground attack is made. It reads like his main duty was a light truck driver. As far as the counteroffense awards, there are no orders made for these, if your unit was included in a certain operation, then everyone assigned to that unit will get credit for these counteroffense awards wheather or not they actually were at the event. Artiliary units normally operated within a base camp or fire base, not on their own or by themselves. The army doesn't have a mos for asst. machine gunner. In Vietnam they didn't even have a mos for machine gunner, everyone was 11B__. I don't know or ever heard of artililary soldiers in the Marines or Army doing any combat operations. They had to always be availble to do fire mission 24 hours a day whenever needed by someone who made contact with the enemy. This soldier is going to have a hard time having the VA letting him in.

#9 blanco63

 
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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:04 PM

i am helping a vietnam veteran do a claim for ptsd. he served with the 101st, 327th infantry reg, 1st batt at danang, vietnam oct 1971 to jan 1972. on thanksgiving 1971 a helicopter crashed after it left danang on its way to phu bai and killed all 34 soldiers on board. many who died were his friends. he had to go search for them so he saw some dead out in the field and on base when others were brought back. he says this is one of his stressors. it can be verified everywhere. what do you think ? will the va consider this a stressor ? thanks for your time.

#10 broncovet

 
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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:00 AM

My 2 cents:
I think it is "catch 22" that the VA requires proof of stressors in war. The bottom line is that, in war, things dont always go right, there is no perfect record keeping, and often people who actually saw the stressors were killed. Just because I may lack the expertise and resources to prove the sun rose ten years ago, does not mean that people ten years ago were not warmed by the suns rays.
Of course, my opinion that this requirement is outrageous does not matter. In order to win the benefits this Veteran deserves, may I humbly suggest a "buddy statement" ..by looking up one or more of the buddies the Veteran served with. Hey..maybe the buddy is also trying to get benefits, and also needs this Veteran to sign a buddy statement in his behalf. Of course, I dont know if it is possible to locate these buddies.

Edited by broncovet, 21 April 2009 - 06:04 AM.


#11 Berta

 
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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:22 AM

My daughter helped some vets in the same unit to get awards and at the same time these vets found each other and they all could corroborate specific stressors.

One vet gave a buddy statement to VA with his C file number in it and told the VA he gets SC for PTSD for the same event the others were trying to prove.

The awards they all got also helped considerably-I know I ran this by you all before- but it involvd fact that my daughter is proficient in Vietnamese-one of best Vietnamese linquists in the country-one vet had saved a 3 page document he found in Vietnam with names and SS numbers of the men in his unit at a specific maneuver.
It was in Vietnamese with an official stamp and he thought it was a hit list for them all -for decades.
My daughter translated it and it was commendations from the Vietnamese as to their extraordinary bravery during this maneuver.
They all got awards they never knew of for decades.
And they all got PTSD SC.

It is amazing how-once a vet does take the time to find buddies (and it is a lot of work sometimes) how buddies can be found and often their buddy statement for VA comp is one thing but more important is that the comradery is still in tact and they often continue to keep in touch with each.

The internet has made it far easier to find buddies than it used to be.
It can mean an award letter that might never come without the statement.

The buddy must be able to show VA he was in same unit, same time and place and to give eye witness account that puts you on the scene of the stressor.

#12 broncovet

 
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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:52 AM

Berta
Thanks! You said what I said, but you said it better. Both of us agree on this:

GET A BUDDY STATEMENT

#13 Philip Rogers

 
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Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:01 AM

Carla, was he qualified w/the machine gun? If I recall correctly, machine gun qualification, back then, was done in AIT. Non-Infantry didn't receive training in the M-60 or the 50 caliber. Not positive on that, as memory is failing these days.

As for records, he can find reports on the crash, company rosters and the daily logs and journals, which should document the incident, names of deceased, injured, etc.. The problem I see is many claim to have friends in crashes or other incidents, they recall hearing about or seeing, especially when they could receive $2673, or more, a month, from the VA. Documenting stressors is really easy thru the National Archives, is faster than waiting for the JSRRC, and traveling there is the best way to do it. One merely needs to pick a time period and start researching. Each command kept daily logs and journals and once you locate an event, near where you served, you just keep checking the logs and journals, down to the company level. The archivists are extremely helpful. A claimant can save a year's wait by going to the archives themselves. If he doesn't remember he can find one thru the archives.

I was looking for orders, for the Vietnamese Jump Wings we were awarded, after a jump for pay, in Nov '65, and found most of my platoon had been awarded Bronze Stars, when they returned to the states, at their new commands. I stayed for another year so no BS. Had I returned w/them I'd probably have one, not that it matters, cuz to me it just cheapens the award. As a footnote, no orders for Vietnamese Jump Wings were found because foreign awards generally aren't carried in our records, except for large unit type awards, which would be confirmed as General Orders.

The campaigns you listed were just general campaigns and are carried as stars on the VSM but don't relate, in any way, to combat.

pr

Edited by Philip Rogers, 21 April 2009 - 08:02 AM.


#14 carlie

 
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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:49 PM

pr,
His Advanced Individual Training states:
25 May 1968 Duty MOS 13F10 Asst. Mach Gunner.
We have photos of him in bunkers and with the 50 cal he was
assigned to.

He said some of the main things he did was travel in convoys to protect supplies getting through
and perimeter security.
He said in 1969 at Baoloc many,many mortar rounds coming in and he was stationed
there then and returned fire.

He got sent to the Bon Son area (Lodieu Beach) by chopper for a stand down in 1970
and Typhoon Kate came into Bon Son area and the choppers could not get them out.

He said they had to hump to a pick-up point four miles away and in doing so they found a base camp with enemy propaganda and engaged and killed a squad of VC. He said on that patrol there were two pointmen, one was Spec 4 Kenneth T. Perry and the second pointman was
Spec 4 Patrick Glowacki.

What does the VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL with 4 bronze service stars, mean.

Hoppy,
He does have a current diagnosis of PTSD from his VA Psychiatrist
and his Vet Center MSW, that both provide a nexus to 2 tours of combat in Vietnam.

Thanks to all,
carlie

#15 carlie

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 08:00 AM

bump-a-roo-nee.

#16 Berta

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 09:55 AM

What does the VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL with 4 bronze service stars, mean.

My husband had 3 Bronze Stars in his VSM ribbon- as well as the Presidential Unit Citations and many other awards.

It means nothing for VA claims purposes.

His stressors still had to be verified.

"He does have a current diagnosis of PTSD from his VA Psychiatrist
and his Vet Center MSW, that both provide a nexus to 2 tours of combat in Vietnam."

Did the MSW or shrink ever work as a rater for the VA?

Or did they serve with him in his unit at time of stressors?If so they can give a buddy statement-

He apparently has not been run through JSRRC yet ????

If he gives enough details to JSRRC (via what he said in his claim and to his shrink)- they will find any proof of nexus available but meantime he too should actively be researching his stressors, unit web site, and attempt to obtain a buddy statement in case JSCCR cannot verify his stressors.

I have come across many many vets at local VAMC and elsewhere who thought because their shrink said they had PTSD from Vietnam -it was a done deal.

The diagnosis is only valid when VA obtains proof of their stressor.

#17 Berta

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:02 AM

forgot to answer your question!

The Ribbon denotes Vietnam Service with the Bronze Stars denoting campaigns.

The word campaign does not mean participation in direct combat.It can mean support of operations etc-

It does not prove combat for VA purposes.

#18 carlie

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:10 AM

Berta,
I realize that the shrink and MSW stating he has PTSD due to in service stressor,
is only medical evidence of PTSD and not evidence of a stressor.

I am trying to find evidence in his files that shows proof of being a combat vet
so the stressor rules are relaxed for PTSD.

That's why I posted the question about the typhoon -
PTSD can be from the stressor of a natural disaster
and from the enemy base camp they engaged with
amoung other experience's.

I still don't know what the 4 bronze stars are for and am questioning that.
This vet say's he thinks each bronze star represents 6 months in Vietnam
but we aren't for sure that this is what they represent.

Are the National Archives located in Washington DC ?

Thanks,

carlie

#19 Berta

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:28 AM

The Bronze Stars on this type of ribbon denote Campaigns.

The NARA web site might have something of help-

Also weather reorts can be obtained from NOA-if he needs to prove he was in a Typhoon

I got the actual weather reports that transpired when I did my final AMU essay-from NOA on line
on how the weather affected General Eisenhower's decision for D-Day-
had D day been one day sooner or one day later- the results would have been devastating to the Allied Forces.

As it was- the weather did affect the paratroopers, gliders, and the battleships coming across the English Channel.

I got the actual weather balloon reports and maps,etc and even Hitler's weathermen forecast (same as what Ike got but Hilter didnt believe it-the Allies had a small widow of good weather on D Day)

ooops off track here- I sure hope this vet has something better than a typhoon as stressor if same vet with the VSM and 4 Bronze Stars-

Edited by carlie, 24 April 2009 - 10:53 AM.


#20 Berta

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:41 AM

http://www.archives.gov/

Sorry for the double- dont have time to delete and re type it all

This vet knows if he was in combat or not.He needs to give the VA enough details of his stressors so that JSRRC can verify them.

Or he could contact JSRRC himself.

Time and date and place of stressor to best of his knowledge, detailed enough to help JSRRC find this in morning reports or after action reports, names of any deceased mil due to stressor, name of Operation if possible, names of Command at time of stressor, etc etc

Carlie- a personal thought-I have spent days, hours and weeks and months doing what you are doing.I dont do it anymore.

It might help a lot if this vet gets in touch with JSRRC himself, details his stressors, and sees if they can verify them. They will do a search for a reasonable fee.
Otherwise the VA will have them do it.
Or he could go there himself.

He only needs one proven stressor if he claims combat PTSD.

#21 Philip Rogers

 
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Posted 24 April 2009 - 06:07 PM

Carla, the bronze stars represent each campaign in VN. I think there were about 16-18 of them. When I was there we were told one star for each 6 months, we were there, but that was wrong. If you search VN campaigns it'll name them.

Typhoons are easy to verify. I helped someone, here, a Gary somebody, prove his typhoon. Additionally all other "documentable" stressors are easy to verify. A clamaint does not have to have been "in combat." The AF published a book of all raids on AFB's in VN, which verify stressors. Have him call the archvists, in College Park, and they can help. They don't work for the VA. Here's a link to College Park: http://www.archives....o/college-park/

I've been there - even met a Hadit member there. It's so great!!

Hugs, girl!!
pr


Berta,
I realize that the shrink and MSW stating he has PTSD due to in service stressor,
is only medical evidence of PTSD and not evidence of a stressor.

I am trying to find evidence in his files that shows proof of being a combat vet
so the stressor rules are relaxed for PTSD.

That's why I posted the question about the typhoon -
PTSD can be from the stressor of a natural disaster
and from the enemy base camp they engaged with
amoung other experience's.

I still don't know what the 4 bronze stars are for and am questioning that.
This vet say's he thinks each bronze star represents 6 months in Vietnam
but we aren't for sure that this is what they represent.

Are the National Archives located in Washington DC ?

Thanks,

carlie