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      How to get your questions answered. A few observations, and requests of all members. All folks who come here are volunteers who do this on their own time and their own dime.To avoid burning out our best contributors please follow these guidelinesf you are reading a post and it reminds you of a question you want to ask, start a new topic, if you place your question in someone thread it will be difficult to distinguish your question from the original poster, you will get better results posting a new topic with your question. 1. Before Posting please do a search and see if your question has already been answered. If you find the answer print it out and put it in a file to use as a reference file, I find this helpful myself. 2. If you can not find the answer and you do post a question, please print out those answers and refer to them to avoid duplicate questions. 3. Refer to the Frequently Asked Questions4. Duplicate questions will come up from time to time but the keeping them to the minimum will lighten the load on the regular volunteers.5. Respect folks privacy do not request their personal phone numbers for claims help, it is inappropriate and not why they are here.6. Keep the topics focused on veterans issues, in closing Search first Search ... Ask second.it may save a lot of time or at the very least enlighten you.
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    • A bit about Tbird and HadIt.com for those who've asked...

      The following is on my About page, but some have been asking how this all happened. So here is my little story. Tbird US Navy 1983 – 1990 E-6 HadIt.com the website domain registered Jan 20, 1997 the domain is registered and paid for through Jan 21, 2023 at which time I plan to register it for another 15 years Lord willing and the creek don't rise. I guess the best place to start is Jan 1991; I had gotten out of the navy Dec 1990. At my separation seminar, there was a DAV rep Jim Milton he told us to bring our medical records in and he would look through them for us and let us know if we should file a claim with the VA. Well, bless his heart, he opened my medical file, reads the first insert, looks me straight in the eye, and says you will be 50% for the rest of your life and he would file the claim for me. 50% was for surgery I had in the service. True to his word he met with me and talked with me for a long time filled out my paper work and urged me to file for PTSD. I would not file the PTSD claim, nor even discuss it. By Feb 1991 I had moved to the San Francisco bay area and was staying at a friends apartment and pretty much I was just a puddle. In desperation one night I called suicide hot line, I had no job, no idea about going to the VA. They talked with me for a long time and explained to me that I could go to the local VA hospital even if I did not have insurance. Now, I know what you are thinking if I was 50% why didn't I just go to the VA in the first place, two reasons 1, this was Feb 1991 and the 50% didn't come till May and 2, even if it had come through it is unlikely that I would have had the mental acuity at the time to put the two together. I relate this here because it is where so many of our brothers and sisters are coming from, perhaps where you started. Fuzzy and unsure, in pain and sometimes homeless they come to the VA hospital for help. And that is where I ended up. Up to the pysch ward I went, blah, blah, blah, a few days later I was released with a promise of a call from the out patient program, which I would soon be entering. Blah, blah, blah, after many missed communications, and no call backs I was at the Day Hospital everyday M-F. And this brothers and sisters is where I began to learn and formulate my plan for HadIt.com. Veterans, veterans everywhere…I spent a year in the day hospital and about another year at a sheltered workshop before I got back on my feet. So I just talked to veterans everyday waiting for appointments, waiting for prescriptions, waiting for a vet rep and I started to learn the system. While in the navy I was data analyst and had to learn a 5 volume manual and just about anything you were suppose to do was in that manual. So I figured there must be a manual on how to do a VA claim or at the very least regulations. So I found out about the Code of Federal Regulations, United States Code, Veterans Affairs Manuals and so on and so forth. Of course this was 1991/1992 I was living in a tiny studio apartment in a particularly bad neighborhood, working in a sheltered workshop making a nickel per envelope I stuffed throw in PTSD and you will see that it was a difficult task for me to get somewhere where they had copies of these, let alone that they would let me look at. And there was so much knowledge around me, it was like the gold rush in those days, I could just sit on a bench a veteran would sit down next to me a little conversation later I had another nugget, I made copious notes. Phone numbers to call, ask for this guy or that guy he'll give you the straight scoop and they'd slip me a piece of paper with a number on it. You want to read this regulation or that one and another slip of paper into my hand. I spent a lot of time on those benches watching the squirrels they gathered their nuts and I gathered mine :) So I'm thinking I could put a little handbook together print it out and hand it out at the VA. Or perhaps fliers. Still formulating, time goes by, 1994/1995 I am being treated for PTSD regularly and doing and feeling much better and I go to work for a company as a marketing systems analyst and I discover the internet. Well let me tell you that was perhaps one of the most significant life changing events I have ever experienced. And I might add finally a positive one :) It seemed only natural to me that surely there must be a website that contained all the knowledge I wanted, well as it turned out not so much, lots of stuff but I wanted to get straight to the claims information and there was a lot of stuff to wade through to get to it. So taking my lesson from the squirrels earlier I started to gather, gather, gather…and learn HTML and work as a marketing systems analyst and work my claim. 1996/1997 major PTSD cork blows and unemployed. Working my claim, working the website. 20 Jan 1997 register HadIt.com domain name right after getting off the phone with the VA and saying I've had it with this. As fate would have it the old DAV board goes down just as mine opens up and folks start to wander in. So HadIt.com has two main components the website which supports the discussion board with links, articles, research resources etc. The website starts to grow, I can't tell you how many times I had to switch servers for space and features. I continue on a downward trend and in 1998 ended up back home in St Louis living in my sisters basement in therapy and working it, I swear I would have swung a dead chicken around my head at midnight naked if I thought it would have helped. The website continued to do great during this time, I just stayed in the basement bought new software, new books, and learned how to make things work and I continued to use this knowledge to make HadIt.com better. My 100% finally came through from the VA and I had a friend who is an advocate who helped me thru my SSDI claim, he was literally at my side thru the entire process and that came through for me. My therapist and sister continued to try and get me to leave the basement, but to no avail. At some point in 1998 or 1999 I put a counter on the website and was shocked to discover how many visitors we were getting. Time goes by my sister gets married and I move from the basement to the upstairs, there is much celebration that Aunt T is living in the light again. More time goes by and I settle into my life in St Louis and spend more time on the site trying new things, finding more information. 2003 I buy my own home VA loan. For years now I have just considered HadIt.com my job and I get up every morning go to the office and work for several hours, take an afternoon break and see where the rest of day takes me. I have a place in the office to use the computer and a comfortable to place to read journals and articles and take notes. Blah, blah, blah so that is my story and HadIt.com's intertwined.
    • HadIt.com Pass It On Cards

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    • VA Training and Fast Letter Forum Index

      VA Training and Fast Letter Forum Index The following is the index with links to the various Training and Fast Letters plus a few miscellaneous. These letters are not necessarily in the original formatting. I have tried to present them in an easy-to-read form instead of some forms as originally presented. Some of the paragraphs were WAAAAYYY too long. lol - HadIt.com Member fanaticbooks Something to be aware.... Some of these letters may be rescinded, outdated, or otherwise no longer viable. I have still included them because sometimes they provide additional insight or just plain more information than the newest version. Use them wisely. The oldest letters will display at the bottom with the latest letters displayed at the top, all in sequential numbers. Coding of the letters... FL = Fast Letter TL = Training Letter First two numbers = last two digits of year of origin Training Letter http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40694-va-tl-00-07/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40693-va-tl-00-06/ Fast Letter Number Title http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44262-va-fl-11-15/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44260-va-fl-11-13/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44261-va-fl-11-11/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44310-va-fl-11-09/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/42151-va-fl-11-03/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40957-va-fl-10-49/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40958-va-fl-10-46/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40959-va-fl-10-45/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40960-va-fl-10-42/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40961-va-fl-10-39/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40962-va-fl-10-35/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40963-va-fl-10-34/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40964-va-fl-10-32/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40966-va-fl-10-30/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40967-va-fl-10-26/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40968-va-fl-10-25/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40819-va-fl-10-24e1/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40818-va-fl-10-24/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40817-va-fl-10-22/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40814-va-fl-10-04/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40969-va-fl-10-03/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40812-va-fl-10-02/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40808-va-fl-09-52/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40806-va-fl-09-50/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40970-va-fl-09-41/ http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40971-va-fl-09-38/ 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What Is P & T?

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Posted · Report post

I have searched the board, but can't find anything that actually says what the two letters stand for. I'm thinking it has something to do with unemployability though. Right?

I did find this link in another post here which breaks down a lot of common acronyms used on this board but P & T wasn't listed.

http://www.hadit.com/index.php?categoryid=33

Thanks

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13 answers to this question

Posted · Report post

P & T stands for Permanent and Total Disability, basically means that your conditions are not likely to get better but VA can still re-evaluate you from time to time.

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Posted · Report post

P & T stands for Permanent and Total Disability, basically means that your conditions are not likely to get better but VA can still re-evaluate you from time to time.

Pete,

how long did it take you to get this done and did you use your primary va doctor ?

Thanks,

loma linda bill

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Posted · Report post

It took 14 years, I think my file has every VA doctor you can think of: primary care, dermatologist, rhuematologist, neurologist, psychiatrist, gastroenterologist,urologist and maybe more that I can't think of over the years. My spelling maybe off but it took me a while.

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Posted · Report post

The VA does not use the term P&T, which as has already be stated means Permanent and total. A veteran knows he is P&T when they are awarded dependant chapter 35 benefits, or dependant medical care. Veteran may request they be considered P&T, but the va must consider it when any TDIU or 100% rating is awarded. In many cases P&T is granted with out a seperate request. P&T is not a VA term, but a term used by veterans to indicate they have or want dependent benefits.

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Posted · Report post

The VA does not use the term P&T, which as has already be stated means Permanent and total. A veteran knows he is P&T when they are awarded dependant chapter 35 benefits, or dependant medical care. Veteran may request they be considered P&T, but the VA must consider it when any TDIU or 100% rating is awarded. In many cases P&T is granted with out a seperate request. P&T is not a VA term, but a term used by veterans to indicate they have or want dependent benefits.

TEAC, If VA does not use the term P & T then can you please explain. Also I am 100% P & T and with my award I was sent a VA Form 21-8760 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR VETERANS WITH SERVICE-CONNECTED PERMANENT AND TOTAL DISABILITY)

Veterans get this term directly from the regulation and the forms provided by VA, it's their term not ours. Unfortunately I can not find this form on line and I can not scan and post it but other can verify that it does exist and it is where the term P & T comes from.

4.15 Total disability rating

The ability to overcome the handicap of disability varies widely among individuals. The rating, however, is based primarily upon the average impairment in earning capacity, that is, upon the economic or industrial handicap which must be overcome and not from individual success in overcoming it. However, full consideration must be given to unusual physical or mental effects in individual cases, to peculiar effects of occupational activities, to defects in physical or mental endowment preventing the usual amount of success in overcoming the handicap of disability and to the effect of combinations of disability. Total disability will be considered to exist when there is present any impairment of mind or body which is sufficient to render it impossible for the average person to follow a substantially gainful occupation; Provided, That permanent total disability shall be taken to exist when the impairment is reasonably certain to continue throughout the life of the disabled person.

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Posted · Report post

TEAC, If VA does not use the term P & T then can you please explain. Also I am 100% P & T and with my award I was sent a VA Form 21-8760 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR VETERANS WITH SERVICE-CONNECTED PERMANENT AND TOTAL DISABILITY)

Veterans get this term directly from the regulation and the forms provided by VA, it's their term not ours. Unfortunately I can not find this form on line and I can not scan and post it but other can verify that it does exist and it is where the term P & T comes from.

4.15 Total disability rating

The ability to overcome the handicap of disability varies widely among individuals. The rating, however, is based primarily upon the average impairment in earning capacity, that is, upon the economic or industrial handicap which must be overcome and not from individual success in overcoming it. However, full consideration must be given to unusual physical or mental effects in individual cases, to peculiar effects of occupational activities, to defects in physical or mental endowment preventing the usual amount of success in overcoming the handicap of disability and to the effect of combinations of disability. Total disability will be considered to exist when there is present any impairment of mind or body which is sufficient to render it impossible for the average person to follow a substantially gainful occupation; Provided, That permanent total disability shall be taken to exist when the impairment is reasonably certain to continue throughout the life of the disabled person.

I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.

I also refer you to the BVN where this has been discussed many times and Crusier and other va employees have stated that the va does not equate "P&T" to anything other than a 100% rating.

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Posted · Report post

I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there[their] award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.

I also refer you to the BVN where this has been discussed many times and Crusier and other va employees have stated that the va does not equate "P&T" to anything other than a 100% rating.

Sirrah, I pick up thy gage! (if you've not, then read the like of "Ivanhoe" and "Men of Iron")

From my recent award. It states,...

"To be eligible for the CHAMPVA program a dependent must be the spouse or child of a veteran who is permanently and totally disabled from a service-connected disability."

"We enclosed a VA Form 21-8760, 'Additional Information for Veterans with Service-Connected Permanent and Total Disability,'..."

from my item 6."Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance under 38 U.S.C. Chapter 35."

"Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance is derived from a veteran who was discharged...; and, has a permanent and total service-connected disability;..."

"Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance underU.S.C. Chapter 35 is established from July 8, 2005, the date we granted entitlement to a total evaluation based on individual unemployability. As there is no indication of improvement in the service-connected disabilities which render you unemployable, you are considered permanently disabled..."

I submit I have met and satisfied the requirement of your challenge? ;)

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Posted · Report post

I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.

Let's try not to confuse a convalescent rating to Permanent and Total rating. A convalescent rating will award a veteran temporally 100% service connections and is considered a total disability rating but is not considered permanent.

4.30 Convalescent ratings.

A total disability rating (100 percent) will be assigned without regard to other provisions of the rating schedule when it is established by report at hospital discharge (regular discharge or release to non-bed care) or outpatient release that entitlement is warranted under paragraph (a) (1), (2) or (3) of this section effective the date of hospital admission or outpatient treatment and continuing for a period of 1, 2, or 3 months from the first day of the month following such hospital discharge or outpatient release. The termination of these total ratings will not be subject to §3.105(e) of this chapter. Such total rating will be followed by appropriate schedular evaluations. When the evidence is inadequate to assign a schedular evaluation, a physical examination will be scheduled and considered prior to the termination of a total rating under this section.

(a) Total ratings will be assigned under this section if treatment of a service-connected disability resulted in:

(1) Surgery necessitating at least one month of convalescence (Effective as to outpatient surgery March 1, 1989.)

(2) Surgery with severe postoperative residuals such as incompletely healed surgical wounds, stumps of recent amputations, therapeutic immobilization of one major joint or more, application of a body cast, or the necessity for house confinement, or the necessity for continued use of a wheelchair or crutches (regular weight-bearing prohibited). (Effective as to outpatient surgery March 1, 1989.)

(3) Immobilization by cast, without surgery, of one major joint or more. (Effective as to outpatient treatment March 10, 1976.)

A reduction in the total rating will not be subject to §3.105(e) of this chapter. The total rating will be followed by an open rating reflecting the appropriate schedular evaluation; where the evidence is inadequate to assign the schedular evaluation, a physical examination will be scheduled prior to the end of the total rating period.

Eligibility

http://www.gibill.va.gov/pamphlets/CH35/CH35_Pamphlet_General.htm

http://www4.va.gov/hac/forbeneficiaries/champva/champva.asp

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A gage is a glove, whether it be made of silk (Rebecca's) or of Iron (Richard III).

I'm just glad the codpiece wasn't thrown ;)

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A gage is a glove, whether it be made of silk (Rebecca's) or of Iron (Richard III).

I'm just glad the codpiece wasn't thrown :)

No, NO! The codpiece remain firmly where it is! There'll be none of THAT going on here!(leastways, not by ME! :) )

And in days of olde when issuing a challenge, the challenger would cast down his "gage" (Might be either as defined by "bonzai" and the circumstances of the wearer dictated) before the challenged, perhaps after slapping him across the face a time or twice with it first. A slapping would call for mortal combat. Merely casting it down could be a challenge settled by lesser consequences.

To accept the challenge, the gage was picked up and returned to the issuer, again, with the option of a slapping.

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No, NO! The codpiece remain firmly where it is! There'll be none of THAT going on here!(leastways, not by ME! :) )

And in days of olde when issuing a challenge, the challenger would cast down his "gage" (Might be either as defined by "bonzai" and the circumstances of the wearer dictated) before the challenged, perhaps after slapping him across the face a time or twice with it first. A slapping would call for mortal combat. Merely casting it down could be a challenge settled by lesser consequences.

To accept the challenge, the gage was picked up and returned to the issuer, again, with the option of a slapping.

In keeping with the ORIGINAL posting and the question "What is P&T?"...........................

if you were slapped with this gage..........would that be considered 100% or would you have to be considered unemployable BEFORE being considered Permanently and Totally slapped?

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These are not my answers but they make more sense that I did in my post.. One is from crusier a retired va rater, the other from Rouyeter both posters on the VBN. Both very knowledgeable. And as I said before and say again no veteran ever received a rating that stated they are P&T because it is not used by the va the same way that veterans use the term. Instead the rating will state entitlement chapter 35 and dependant medical benefits..... I know a lot of you don't agree with me, but I can't make a horse drink water either.

Whenever compensation for total disability (either 100 percent or IU) is awarded, the decision is supposed to state in the Reasons and Bases section whether any future review examinations are being scheduled. In addition the Rating Decision is supposed to address entitlement to Dependent's Educational Benefits where it clearly states if any future review exams are required. Finally, if there are no future review exams scheduled the letter is supposed to include an attachment explaining that additional benefits are payable and how to apply for them.

As for the letter saying that you are "P&T" or something like that, keep in mind that this isn't a term that is used at VA like it is in forums such as this. Actually the term "P&T" is generally used at VA to signify entitlement to non-service connected pension.

Cruiser

However, the two parts of P&T, permanence and total disability, are medical determinations that can exist without ever getting any disabilities service-connected. Permanence is a prognosis by a medical professional that a particular disease is not expected to get better. For VA purposes that medical professional should be a medical doctor. Total disability is a medical determination that your disability or combination of disabilities make you unable to work. In VA parlance, that inability to work has certain requirements and conditions in order to be defined as "VA unemployable" for compensation and/or certain benefits.

In VA pension law you can be P&T without any substantial compensable service-connected disabilities or with some degree of rated service-connected disabilities less than a 100% service-connected rating; P&T may even be found to exist due to advancing age under VA pension rules.

Rouyetet

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I agree with TEAC about P and T, and how the VA looks at it differently than the Veteran. (Gee..what else is new..the VA looks at everything different than the Veteran).

I would add that RO decisions are inconsistent about specifiying "eligibility for DEA". Sometimes, I think the VA says something like, "No future exams are scheduled", and that means, to THEM, it is P an T. However, for example, to your local tax assessor, he may not know that "no future exams are scheduled" means that the Veteran is P and T, and is eligible for a property tax exclusion which is offered by some communnities for "P and T Veterans".

While I am pretty sure that no one listens to Veterans, why does the VA not have a "box" that says..Is Veteran P and T? Yes No? Since there are many state and even county benefits, why is it that Veterans are often frustrated at obtaining them, even after they have received a P & T award, because it is often confusing as to whether or not it is P and T.

I think I can guess an explanation. VA does not like to use the words P and T, because, if 5 years later they call for an exam and try to reduce the rating, the Vet can come back upon appeal and say, "but you already said I was P and T, and now you are changing your mind...you said P and T, and that decision became final a year ago".

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