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What Is P & T?


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#1 Fire Courage

 
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Posted 16 December 2009 - 09:26 PM

I have searched the board, but can't find anything that actually says what the two letters stand for. I'm thinking it has something to do with unemployability though. Right?

I did find this link in another post here which breaks down a lot of common acronyms used on this board but P & T wasn't listed.

http://www.hadit.com...p?categoryid=33

Thanks

#2 pete992

 
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Posted 16 December 2009 - 09:42 PM

P & T stands for Permanent and Total Disability, basically means that your conditions are not likely to get better but VA can still re-evaluate you from time to time.

Edited by pete992, 16 December 2009 - 09:44 PM.


#3 Loma Linda Bill

 
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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:24 AM

P & T stands for Permanent and Total Disability, basically means that your conditions are not likely to get better but VA can still re-evaluate you from time to time.

Pete,

how long did it take you to get this done and did you use your primary va doctor ?

Thanks,

loma linda bill

#4 pete992

 
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Posted 17 December 2009 - 08:46 AM

It took 14 years, I think my file has every VA doctor you can think of: primary care, dermatologist, rhuematologist, neurologist, psychiatrist, gastroenterologist,urologist and maybe more that I can't think of over the years. My spelling maybe off but it took me a while.

#5 Teac

 
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Posted 17 December 2009 - 10:14 PM

The VA does not use the term P&T, which as has already be stated means Permanent and total. A veteran knows he is P&T when they are awarded dependant chapter 35 benefits, or dependant medical care. Veteran may request they be considered P&T, but the va must consider it when any TDIU or 100% rating is awarded. In many cases P&T is granted with out a seperate request. P&T is not a VA term, but a term used by veterans to indicate they have or want dependent benefits.

#6 pete992

 
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Posted 17 December 2009 - 11:11 PM

The VA does not use the term P&T, which as has already be stated means Permanent and total. A veteran knows he is P&T when they are awarded dependant chapter 35 benefits, or dependant medical care. Veteran may request they be considered P&T, but the VA must consider it when any TDIU or 100% rating is awarded. In many cases P&T is granted with out a seperate request. P&T is not a VA term, but a term used by veterans to indicate they have or want dependent benefits.


TEAC, If VA does not use the term P & T then can you please explain. Also I am 100% P & T and with my award I was sent a VA Form 21-8760 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR VETERANS WITH SERVICE-CONNECTED PERMANENT AND TOTAL DISABILITY)
Veterans get this term directly from the regulation and the forms provided by VA, it's their term not ours. Unfortunately I can not find this form on line and I can not scan and post it but other can verify that it does exist and it is where the term P & T comes from.

4.15 Total disability
rating



The ability to overcome the handicap of disability varies widely among individuals. The rating, however, is based primarily upon the average impairment in earning capacity, that is, upon the economic or industrial handicap which must be overcome and not from individual success in overcoming it. However, full consideration must be given to unusual physical or mental effects in individual cases, to peculiar effects of occupational activities, to defects in physical or mental endowment preventing the usual amount of success in overcoming the handicap of disability and to the effect of combinations of disability. Total disability will be considered to exist when there is present any impairment of mind or body which is sufficient to render it impossible for the average person to follow a substantially gainful occupation; Provided, That permanent total disability shall be taken to exist when the impairment is reasonably certain to continue throughout the life of the disabled person.

Edited by pete992, 18 December 2009 - 12:12 AM.


#7 Teac

 
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Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:01 AM

TEAC, If VA does not use the term P & T then can you please explain. Also I am 100% P & T and with my award I was sent a VA Form 21-8760 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR VETERANS WITH SERVICE-CONNECTED PERMANENT AND TOTAL DISABILITY)
Veterans get this term directly from the regulation and the forms provided by VA, it's their term not ours. Unfortunately I can not find this form on line and I can not scan and post it but other can verify that it does exist and it is where the term P & T comes from.

4.15 Total disability
rating



The ability to overcome the handicap of disability varies widely among individuals. The rating, however, is based primarily upon the average impairment in earning capacity, that is, upon the economic or industrial handicap which must be overcome and not from individual success in overcoming it. However, full consideration must be given to unusual physical or mental effects in individual cases, to peculiar effects of occupational activities, to defects in physical or mental endowment preventing the usual amount of success in overcoming the handicap of disability and to the effect of combinations of disability. Total disability will be considered to exist when there is present any impairment of mind or body which is sufficient to render it impossible for the average person to follow a substantially gainful occupation; Provided, That permanent total disability shall be taken to exist when the impairment is reasonably certain to continue throughout the life of the disabled person.



I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.

I also refer you to the BVN where this has been discussed many times and Crusier and other va employees have stated that the va does not equate "P&T" to anything other than a 100% rating.

#8 Jayg

 
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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:06 AM

I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there[their] award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.

I also refer you to the BVN where this has been discussed many times and Crusier and other va employees have stated that the va does not equate "P&T" to anything other than a 100% rating.

Sirrah, I pick up thy gage! (if you've not, then read the like of "Ivanhoe" and "Men of Iron")

From my recent award. It states,...

"To be eligible for the CHAMPVA program a dependent must be the spouse or child of a veteran who is permanently and totally disabled from a service-connected disability."

"We enclosed a VA Form 21-8760, 'Additional Information for Veterans with Service-Connected Permanent and Total Disability,'..."

from my item 6."Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance under 38 U.S.C. Chapter 35."
"Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance is derived from a veteran who was discharged...; and, has a permanent and total service-connected disability;..."
"Eligibility to Dependents Educational Assistance underU.S.C. Chapter 35 is established from July 8, 2005, the date we granted entitlement to a total evaluation based on individual unemployability. As there is no indication of improvement in the service-connected disabilities which render you unemployable, you are considered permanently disabled..."

I submit I have met and satisfied the requirement of your challenge? ;)

#9 pete992

 
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Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:57 AM

I have been told by a va rating specialist that the va does not use the term in the mannor that veterans use the term. To veterans P&T means that they get dependant education and medical benefits. To the va P&T has nothing to do with dependant education or medical benefits, the va does not use the term "P&T" to discribe these benefits. In fact I challange any veteran to show that there award of chapter 35 or champva benefits even mentioned "P&T". As I said the va does not use this term in conjuction with these benefits. In addition one can be rated Permanent and total... with out dependant benefits. Ie: 100% temporary award. Again the term has nothing to do with dependant benefits. Usually the only way a veteran knows they are actually considered "P&T" is when the award letter states chapter 35 benefits are awarded. But again the term P&T is not used by the va in the same mannor that veterans use it.


Let's try not to confuse a convalescent rating to Permanent and Total rating. A convalescent rating will award a veteran temporally 100% service connections and is considered a total disability rating but is not considered permanent.

4.30 Convalescent ratings.

A total disability rating (100 percent) will be assigned without regard to other provisions of the rating schedule when it is established by report at hospital discharge (regular discharge or release to non-bed care) or outpatient release that entitlement is warranted under paragraph (a) (1), (2) or (3) of this section effective the date of hospital admission or outpatient treatment and continuing for a period of 1, 2, or 3 months from the first day of the month following such hospital discharge or outpatient release. The termination of these total ratings will not be subject to 3.105(e) of this chapter. Such total rating will be followed by appropriate schedular evaluations. When the evidence is inadequate to assign a schedular evaluation, a physical examination will be scheduled and considered prior to the termination of a total rating under this section.

(a) Total ratings will be assigned under this section if treatment of a service-connected disability resulted in:

(1) Surgery necessitating at least one month of convalescence (Effective as to outpatient surgery March 1, 1989.)

(2) Surgery with severe postoperative residuals such as incompletely healed surgical wounds, stumps of recent amputations, therapeutic immobilization of one major joint or more, application of a body cast, or the necessity for house confinement, or the necessity for continued use of a wheelchair or crutches (regular weight-bearing prohibited). (Effective as to outpatient surgery March 1, 1989.)

(3) Immobilization by cast, without surgery, of one major joint or more. (Effective as to outpatient treatment March 10, 1976.)

A reduction in the total rating will not be subject to 3.105(e) of this chapter. The total rating will be followed by an open rating reflecting the appropriate schedular evaluation; where the evidence is inadequate to assign the schedular evaluation, a physical examination will be scheduled prior to the end of the total rating period.

Eligibility

http://www.gibill.va.gov/pamphlets/CH35/CH35_Pamphlet_General.htm

http://www4.va.gov/hac/forbeneficiaries/champva/champva.asp

#10 Bonzai

 
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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:30 AM

A gage is a glove, whether it be made of silk (Rebecca's) or of Iron (Richard III).

I'm just glad the codpiece wasn't thrown ;)

#11 Jayg

 
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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:46 PM

A gage is a glove, whether it be made of silk (Rebecca's) or of Iron (Richard III).

I'm just glad the codpiece wasn't thrown :)

No, NO! The codpiece remain firmly where it is! There'll be none of THAT going on here!(leastways, not by ME! :) )

And in days of olde when issuing a challenge, the challenger would cast down his "gage" (Might be either as defined by "bonzai" and the circumstances of the wearer dictated) before the challenged, perhaps after slapping him across the face a time or twice with it first. A slapping would call for mortal combat. Merely casting it down could be a challenge settled by lesser consequences.

To accept the challenge, the gage was picked up and returned to the issuer, again, with the option of a slapping.

#12 LarryJ

 
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Posted 20 December 2009 - 06:15 PM

No, NO! The codpiece remain firmly where it is! There'll be none of THAT going on here!(leastways, not by ME! :) )

And in days of olde when issuing a challenge, the challenger would cast down his "gage" (Might be either as defined by "bonzai" and the circumstances of the wearer dictated) before the challenged, perhaps after slapping him across the face a time or twice with it first. A slapping would call for mortal combat. Merely casting it down could be a challenge settled by lesser consequences.

To accept the challenge, the gage was picked up and returned to the issuer, again, with the option of a slapping.



In keeping with the ORIGINAL posting and the question "What is P&T?"...........................

if you were slapped with this gage..........would that be considered 100% or would you have to be considered unemployable BEFORE being considered Permanently and Totally slapped?

#13 Teac

 
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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:17 PM

These are not my answers but they make more sense that I did in my post.. One is from crusier a retired va rater, the other from Rouyeter both posters on the VBN. Both very knowledgeable. And as I said before and say again no veteran ever received a rating that stated they are P&T because it is not used by the va the same way that veterans use the term. Instead the rating will state entitlement chapter 35 and dependant medical benefits..... I know a lot of you don't agree with me, but I can't make a horse drink water either.


Whenever compensation for total disability (either 100 percent or IU) is awarded, the decision is supposed to state in the Reasons and Bases section whether any future review examinations are being scheduled. In addition the Rating Decision is supposed to address entitlement to Dependent's Educational Benefits where it clearly states if any future review exams are required. Finally, if there are no future review exams scheduled the letter is supposed to include an attachment explaining that additional benefits are payable and how to apply for them.

As for the letter saying that you are "P&T" or something like that, keep in mind that this isn't a term that is used at VA like it is in forums such as this. Actually the term "P&T" is generally used at VA to signify entitlement to non-service connected pension.

Cruiser

However, the two parts of P&T, permanence and total disability, are medical determinations that can exist without ever getting any disabilities service-connected. Permanence is a prognosis by a medical professional that a particular disease is not expected to get better. For VA purposes that medical professional should be a medical doctor. Total disability is a medical determination that your disability or combination of disabilities make you unable to work. In VA parlance, that inability to work has certain requirements and conditions in order to be defined as "VA unemployable" for compensation and/or certain benefits.

In VA pension law you can be P&T without any substantial compensable service-connected disabilities or with some degree of rated service-connected disabilities less than a 100% service-connected rating; P&T may even be found to exist due to advancing age under VA pension rules.

Rouyetet

#14 broncovet

 
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Posted 21 December 2009 - 07:22 AM

I agree with TEAC about P and T, and how the VA looks at it differently than the Veteran. (Gee..what else is new..the VA looks at everything different than the Veteran).
I would add that RO decisions are inconsistent about specifiying "eligibility for DEA". Sometimes, I think the VA says something like, "No future exams are scheduled", and that means, to THEM, it is P an T. However, for example, to your local tax assessor, he may not know that "no future exams are scheduled" means that the Veteran is P and T, and is eligible for a property tax exclusion which is offered by some communnities for "P and T Veterans".
While I am pretty sure that no one listens to Veterans, why does the VA not have a "box" that says..Is Veteran P and T? Yes No? Since there are many state and even county benefits, why is it that Veterans are often frustrated at obtaining them, even after they have received a P & T award, because it is often confusing as to whether or not it is P and T.
I think I can guess an explanation. VA does not like to use the words P and T, because, if 5 years later they call for an exam and try to reduce the rating, the Vet can come back upon appeal and say, "but you already said I was P and T, and now you are changing your mind...you said P and T, and that decision became final a year ago".